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•AN -'asnavHAS 

-S0H9 QUOIAVQ 



CONSOLIDATION OF FOREST LANDS 



HEARINGS 



BEFORE THE 



SUBCOMMITTEE OF THE 
COMMITTEE ON THE PUBLIC LANDS 

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES 

ON 

H. R. 18503 

RELATING TO THE CONSOLIDATION OF 
FOREvST LANDS 




WASHINGTON 

GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE 

1912 






^ 



n. ?f^- % 



CONSOLIDATION OF FOREST LANDS. 



Subcommittee of the 
Committee on the Public Lands, 

House of Representatives. 

April 19, 1912. 

The subcommittee met at 3 o'clock p. m. 

Present: Representatives Dent (chairman), Raker, and Pickett; 
also. Hon. Willis C. Hawley, Member of Congress from Oregon; 
Hon. A. W. Latferty, Member of C\)ngress from Oregon. 

The Chairman. As I unclerstancl, this matter was referred to this 
subcommittee v^dth two additional members added. We have already 
had some hearings on it. Shall we let Mr. Hunter proceed with his 
statement? Would you gentlemen like to ask him questions? 

Mr, Raker. I think it would be a good idea to let him make his 
statement, so far as he can, without interruption, and then when he 
gets through let each member of the committee ask Mr. Hunter such 
questions as he may desire. 

The Chairman. I thought perhaps we might get right down to 
the issue by asking questions. 

Mr. Hunter. I did not come with any statement. I came to an- 
swer questions. I did not prepare any statement. 

Mr. Raker. Tell us what you want under this l)ill; th.at will be the 
best way. 

STATEMENT OF MR. H. A. HUNTER, 810 SPAULDING BUILDING, 

PORTLAND, OREG. 

The Chairman. Very well. You may proceed, Mr. Hunter, with 
whatever statement you desire to make on this bill. 

Mr. HuNi^ER. The exchange under consideration is one which had 
not occurred to us originally. i?ut was suggested in conversation with 
the local forestry people in Oregon, as the solution of all our diffi- 
culties there. To irrigate the entire tract is a costly method and 
would entail a good deal of unnecessary expense, and since the nature 
of the soil was so porous we hesitated to undertake it. While mak- 
ing our investigations, one of the forestry officers — I have forgotten 
his name— stated, " Why would not we agree to consolidate and make 
an exchange?" Well, it was such an unusual procedure that we said 
we would think it over, and we did ; and it occurred to us that it was 
the only thing to do in reason: that is, taking into consideration our 
means for irrigating homesteads and at a price that the farmer could 
pay at that high altitude, because the lands will have to be sold at a 
low price, and it is our intention this year — if we do not lose money 
in the process — to sell the lands with a water right, constructing only 



CONe^OLIDATTON OF FOE EST LANDS. 



the main canal, allowinir the farmer to constrnct his hiteral to his 
land, and sell it. if we make this exchange, at a price of around $30. 
I should op[)ose a higher price than $3;-), unless there is an actual loss. 

Mr. Haavley. That is for Ixith the land and the water!' 

]\[r. HiNTF.ij. That is for both the land and the water. Mr. 
Whistler, the hest anth<irity we can get. and late of the Government 
service, estimates that it ciadd be (hme for $17.r)0. 
Mr. PTaanlfy. Per acre '. 

Mr. Hi^XTFii. ]*er acre. Since the intro(biction of this bill, the 
working of which was suggested by the associate forester, we have 
encouraged 10 Swiss families to go there, and as soon as we are 
able, in May. to take them there, wlien we feel siu'e the snow will 
have gone. They are to have 40 acres of land or more at a price of 
$12. .')0. which shall include a lot for building- oi- residence in each of 
the towns throughout this grant, because we could not anticipate 
which would be the l)est town, or the town that would be nearest the 
land which they selected. So we gave them, free of charge, a lot in 
each. We expected to trade the (Tovernment ac-re for aci'e, and to 
have reser\ed our water rights in the northern part. W'e suggest 
now that an exchange be made below the pass where all of the waters 
drain into the Klamath River, exchanging for the Government lands 
located there all our lands, including the yellow pine, that lie north 
of that pass, and which flow into the C\)lumbia lUver. It was sug- 
gested later that these water rights should be surrendered up to the 
Government. T do not think the land board should expect these 
water rights to l)e gi\en absolutely free. It seems to me that where 
water rights on lands are worth ten times, or even more, per acre 
than the land itself, that some recognition should be given to me for 
the four years of etTort and several thousand dollars in expense that 
I liave been put to. ])ut I should l)e willing to leave it to this com- 
mittee or your Forestry Service. 

Mr. EsTOFiNAT-. ^'(lu would have no use for those Avater rights, 
having exchanged the lands? 

INIr. IIuNTFR. Not unless ]>laced on Carey lands, farther north, 
at a lower elevation, which I would strongly reconnnend the (iov- 
ernment to do, in lieu of using them in the northern part of this 
particular forestry reserve where the contour lines and elevations 
are so extreme — where the coinitry is so rough. 

Reference to the map shown here and furnished by the Forestry 
Department would indicate that where we intend to irrigate, if the 
exchange is made, the contour lines are wide ai)art and the irrigation 
becomes much more easv. Here [indicating on map] it is rcmgher 
and all that 

]Mr. EsTOPiNAL. Then it would be to your advantage to have this 
exchange made, because the irrigation would be nnich easier? 

Mr. HuNTFi!. Much more easy and much more within our needs. 

Mr. EsToPiNAL. Then you would give up the t)ther water rights 
in compensation for this privilege? 

Mr. HiNTFi;. ^'es. Well, we are giving, in addition, sir, very 
Valual)le timl)er lands for lands that are worthless; and I think 
reference to the bill itself makes it necessary for the Government to 
make an exchange that is equal in value. 

The Ciiaii;:max. And area ? 

Mr. IIiNTFi;. And in area. 



CONSOLIDATION OF FOREST LANDS. 

Mr. EsTOPiNAL. The timber on the huid Avould l)e so much iiioi-e 
vahiable than on the land which yon woukl get in return? 

]\Ir. HuNTEK. Oh, the Government would be getting the timber. 
I have used the expression, "'AH of the land north,'' but there are 
some exceptions that I would like to notice. They are not much, 
but some settlers luive gone there under contract from us along the 
river to make homes on strictly agricultural lands, and they are not 
to receive any pine timber, or if it is included in theij- contract they 
are to give it back; and further that I personally promised the chief 
engineer of the town system that we would give him at a nonnnal 
price — I think $7.r)0 an acre, if I recall correctly — and right of way 
through our entire grant in return for the town sites, four in num- 
ber — I think four, although it might be five — and these exce])tions, 
I should like to have recognized, because they Avere 

Mv. Haavley. So far as they are concerned, that Avould be for the 
Forestry Service in making exchange to count those lands as in 
exchange. 

Mr. HrxTKi;. Yes: or rather they can give them to the railway if 
that comes. 

Mr. Haweey. Or to the settlers? 

Mr. HuNTEH. Yes: that can be done. Uoughly speaking, approxi- 
mately the change Avould affect about 20,000 acres. 

Mr. Lafferty'. Does not the railroad company have the right of 
way over the Government lands by having filed on locations with the 
Secretary of the Interior? 

Mr. HrxTER. T think so: but tliey lia.ve not o\er our lands. 

Mr. Laffeijty. If they l)ecome Government lands by surrender to 
the Government, would" not the Government's right of way, then, 
attach immediately? 

Mr. HiNTER. That is (|uite probable. I merely mentioned it, lie- 
cause I only irave them the promise. It is verbal: l)ut I should like 
to have any of our assignors live up to it. if ]iossible: and I should 
think they would do that, because witliout a railway it is not very 
much good. 

Some mention has been made regarding the excessive prices that 
this company might charge for lands there on water. That, how- 
ever, has not been the company's policy, and will not be. We must 
compete: and after having proven the country a grain-growing 
country, Ave Avill be very glad to sell to actual farmers otir lands 
there on strictly i)art-payment plan, Avith some little evidence of 
good faith, sav, a doAvn payment of one-tenth or some such nominal 
sum, indicating that they mean to be bona fide settlers. 

iNIr. EsTOPiNAE. Do you state Avhat ]irices you Avill charge — $35. 
did you say ? 

Mr. Hunter. AVith the Avater, that is our intention to keep it 
below that, because the lands lying at an elevation of 2,000 and even 
more feet north than Avhere we are, in fruit districts, are on sale 
to-day in Oregon and Idaho, and it Avill be necessary for us to meet 
that competition. KnoAving further, as I said this morning, that in 
the last 13 vears the company's average sales of farming lands have 
exceeded 1,000 acres a day, and the average profit upon that has not 
exceeded 32 cents per acre. 

The Chairman. Average profit? 
Mr. Hunter. Yes: aA^erage profit. 



6 CONSOLIDATION OF FOREST LANDS. 

Mr. Pickett. Has that been net? 

Mr. Hunter. That is net. 

Mr. Pickett. After inchiding all elements of expense? 

Mr. Hunter. After including all elements of expense, reasonable 
agent's commissions were, of course, deducted first. In some instances 
there were no commissions. None of the officers of this company have 
received any salary whatever, and it is the policy of the company to 
establish and operate experimental stations and to procure the best 
cereals adapted to the country wherever obtainable. 

Mr. Hawley. That is, you make the experiments for the benefit 
of the farmers and then give them the results of your work? 

Mr. Hunter. Yes. Moreover, we usually adopt the system of 
photographing the actual farm offered for sale under a system for 
which we have applied for patent. Here is the system. [At this 
point Mr. Hunter exhibited certain photographs to the members of 
the committee.] 

Mr. Pickett. Are these all irrigated lands? 

Mr. Hunter. No, sir; I merely showed you those to show you our 
system of selling lands. A man is shown what he is going to see 
before he comes there. Then unless he is shown that land we are open 
to misrepresentation. 

Mr. Pickett. Yes; I understand that. 

Mr. Hawley. These are pictures on another tract? 

Mr. Hunter. Yes; I have not the particular system. 

Mr. Pickett. Ts this 32 cents profit on irrigated lands or these 
other lands? 

Mr. Hunter. On all lands. T am sorry to say that our experience 
on the irrigated lands has been one of "Irish" dividend — has been a 
return of a loss. 

Usuall,y, in every instance, the farmer, as in the instance of these 
Swiss, is given back his money if he is dissatisfied, after inspection, 
and we expect every man to inspect his land, and give them ample 
time — weeks or months, as the case may be. I think any farmer is 
an idiot who l)uys land without inspecting it. 

Mr. Raker. Mr. Hunter, where was this picture taken that you 
presented to us? AVhich tract does this represent [referring to the 
two photographs i^resented by Mr. Hunter to the committee for their 
inspection] ? 

Mr. Hunter. This? 

Mr. Raker. Yes. 

Mr. Hunter. That is taken in — in the State of Florida. 

Mr. Raker. It does not say " Florida " here. 

The CiiAiR^MAN. It was taken where? 

Mr. Hunter. In the State of Florida. 

Mr. Raker. That is a long ways from Oregon. 

Mr. Pickett. I was going to ask what that has got to do with 
Oregon. 

Mr. Hunter. I merely exhibited it to show our system. 

The C'nAnniAN. What part of Florida is this? 

Mr. Hunter. North of Lake Okecholiee. 

The Chairman. Osceola County? 

Mr. Hunter. They are all in Oscola County. 



CONSOLIDATION OF FOREST LANDS. 7 

Mr. Eakek. The first picture is marked "tract 2, section 23, town- 
ship 35, range 32 " : the second, " tract 32, section 23, township 35, 
range 32." Where is this last tract of land? 

Mr. Hunter. One is section 

Mr. Raker. The same State? 

Mr. Hunter. One is section 23 and the other is section 23, ex- 
actly the same range and township. 

Mr. Raker. Have you anj^ pictures in Oregon and California ? 

Mr. Hunter. Yes. 

Mr. Pickett (referring to photograph). This shows the Hunter 
Land Co., of Minneapolis. Is that your home office? 

Mr. Hunter. Yes. sir. 

Mr. Pickett. I got the impression that this was some local com- 
pany here in Oregon. 

The Chairman. I did too. 

Mr. Raker. The picture here [indicating] is marked, " Showing 
average stretch of the lightly timbered lands." That is in the 
Paulina district ? 

Mr. Hunit:r. Yes; that is this very district. 

Mr. Hawley. What is your relation to the Oregon Land Co. ? 

Mr. Hunter. I am secretary and general manager of the Oregon 
Land Corporation, and the Hunter Land Co., of Minneapolis, owns 
one-half of the shares of that company. 

Mr. Pickett. A subsidiary company? 

Mr. Hunter. Yes: we maintain an Oregon branch in Portland, 
Oreg., for western business. 

Mr. Pickett. What is the capital of your company? 

Mr. Hunter. I think it is $50,000. 

Mr. Pickett. Does this 32 cents an acre include all administra- 
tive charges, and everything — the salaries of your officers 

Mr. Hunter. That is the net profit that we make. 

Mr. Pickett. That is net, after all the officers salaries are paid, 
and everything? 

Mr. Hunter. No officer ever received a salary connected with our 
company. 

Mr. Pickett. Oh, he does not? 

Mr. Hunter. No, sir. 

Mr. Raker. What has been the method and mode of the exchange 
you speak of in regard to land where you have made this net profit 
of 32 cents an acre? 

Mr. Hunter. The exchange? 

Mr. Raker. Or sale — how do you do that? 

Mr. Hunter. Oh, we do it through agents, chiefly — through ad- 
vertising and all such methods. 

Mr. Raker. Do you have any drawing system that this 32 cents 
an acre is involved in? 

Mr. Hunter. Oh, no; I merely mentioned that that was our 
average profit. 

Mr. Raker. Well, what I meant is, you sell an acre of land 
through a drawing system? 

Mr, Hunter. None whatever. 

Mr. Raker. You have not used that system? 



8 CONSOLIDATION OF FOREST LANDS. 

Mr, HuxNTER. We are absolutely opposed to it. The system that 
we sell under chiefly is that of the jihotogTaph system of the land 
itself. 

Mr. Raker. You do not get my views of the matter. For in- 
stance, you have got 100,000 acres of land. Do you divide it up, 
segregate it, block it off, and then have a drawing? 

Mr. Hunter. No, sir. 

Mr. Raker. A man may get 10 acres, ^A) acres, or (loO acres, and a 
town lot by paying so much; for instance, '200 acres, $200 for his 
right — nothing of that kind? 

Mr. HirNTER. No, sir; he buys 40 acres at the same pvice as he 
buys (SO acres. The town lots are g•i^"en away. 

Mr. Raker. That is what I wanted to know. Now, come back to 
this particular pk)t here, which is something similar to the one we 
had before on the otlier hearing. The north part, which is in town- 
ships 24, 25, and 26, ranges 7, 8, and 9, is the north part of the tract; 
that is wherein your ])rivately owned lands are that you desire to ex- 
change for lands south of the township line, or l)etween townships 26 
and 27. Is that right ? 

Mr. Hunter. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Haw^ley. On the hatched portion. 

Mr. Raker. Yes. About where is this divide you speak of? It 
would be about the center of township 27 south ? 

Mr. Hunter. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Raker. And the ranges that I have given ? 

Mr. Hunter. And the number of sections also tallic- with what we 
have to exchange. 

Mr. Raker. The land that you desire to exchange is the hatched 
land. It is the luitched land owned by the Government south of this 
land. 

Mr. Hawley. No; the uiihatched land? 

Mr. Hunter. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Raker. Tlie hatclied bind l)clongs to tlic conii)any? 

Mr. Hunter. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Raker. Wliat is the name of the comjiany? 

Mr. Hunter. The Oregon Land ('or])oration. 

Mr. Raker. Is any of this land tliat Avas obtained from the Oregon 
Military Road grant? 

Mr. HuN'raR. It is. 

Mr. Hawley. All of it? 

Mr. Hunter. All of it. 

Mr. Raker. Is there any of that bind invohcd in nny litigation? 

Mr. Hunter. None whatever. 

Mr. Raker. Litigation l)etween the (io\ ci'iuuent and the original 
grantees? 

Mr. Hawley. This land was never in litigation? 

Mr. Hunter. This land was adjudicated many yea is ago. 

Mr. Hawley. But not now. 

Mr. Hunter. And passed tlie Supreme Coui't twice. The title is 
absolutely ]ierfect. 

Mr. Raker. On the land on the north part that the company owns, 
it is timberland? 

Mr. Hunter. I beg your jiardon. 



CONSOLIDATION OF FOREST LANDS. 9 

Mr. Raker. I will repeat it to you. Has tiieve lieen any of that 
land cut over? 

Mr. Hunter. Xo, sir. 

Mr. Raker. In a natural state? 

]\Ir. Hunt1':r. Yes. sir; there is not a mile within -2.') miles of 
there 

Mr. Raker. Have you had any estimate made by cruising on this 
land as to the number of feet per acre stumpage u})on the land? 

Mr. Hunter. Xo, sir. 

Mr. Raker. How many settlers are there on your land that you 
have agreed to sell to — that is, north of the center of township 27 
south ? 

Mr. Hunter. Well 

Mr. Raker. Approximately. 

Mr. Hunter. You say " settlers.*" There are some of these |)eoplc 
that had contracted the land, but they are not settlers yet. 

Mr. Raker. Well. I will put it another way. How much of that 
land — — 

Mr. Hunter. I should say 

Mr. Raker. North of the line designated — and when I speak here- 
after of north it will be north of the center of township i27 south 
and ranges 5. G. 7, 8, and 9 east. 

Mr. Laeferty. What meridian is that ? 

Mr. Hunter. Willamette meridian. I should >ay. roughly, :>,()00 
acres. 

Mr. Raker. That you have contracted? 

Mr. Hunter. Yes. 

Mr. Raker. Where does this land lie, in reference to the stream 
and the kind and character of the land? 

Mr. Hunter. It lies along the stream beds and I'iparian rights and 
water of some sort. 

Mr. Raker. Is that agricultural land? 

Mr. Hunter. Strictly. 

Mr. Raker. It w^ould still be in the exterior boundarv lines of 
this? 

Mr. Hunter. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Raker. Of this national reserve? 

Mr. Hunter. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Raker. And also adjoining the land that you would exchimge 
with the Government for its land? 

Mr. Hunter. Yes; and little streaks along the river. 

Mr. Raker. How long since was it that you made the contracts? 

Mr. Hunter. Some of them have not been executed this year: they 
have been held up. 

Mr. Raker. Well, how long. since have you been making contracts 
with them? 

Mr. Hi'NTER. I would say since last — about the 1st of September 
last, some of them before w'e even acquired the land. 

Mr. Raker. What do you estimate to be the value at the jiresent 
time; that is, the actual cash value as the matter now stands, of your 
timber land per acre, north of the line designated? 

Mr. Hunter. Well, sir, I could not answer that question. I know^ 
nothing about timber. We do not deal in it and. except in Vancouver 
Island, we do not own any. 



10 CONSOLIDATION OF FOREST LANDS. 

Mr. Kaker. Could you give us au idea as to the size of tlie trees, 
the general average of these trees? 

Mr. Hunter. The general average of the yellow pine, I should 
say. in that district they are not particularly large. 

Mr. Raker. How large — from 2i to G feet in diameter? 

Mr. Hunter. Not as large as that, not by any means. Two and 
one-half feet would be neai'cr it. 

Mr. Raker. What other kind of timber is on the land except 
yellow pine? 

Mr. TIuxTKR. Xone — on the yellow-})ine district, you mean? 

Mr. Raker. Yes. 

Mr. Hunter. I should say none. 

Mr. Raker. How much of this land on the north of the line that 
your com]:)any owns is susceptible of irrigation — roughly estimated? 

Mr. Hi NTER. That is a hard question to answer — not a great deal 
on the north part. 

Mr. Raker. Would it be in the neighborhood of something like 
10,000 or 15.000 acres? 

Mr. Hunter. Ten or twenty sections, I should say. 

Mr. Raker. Yes: 10 or 20 sections. I will figure it ujj — between 
17,000 and 20.000. 

Mr. Hawley. It would run r,.000 to 12,000 acres? 

Mr. Hunter. Yes. 

Mr. Raker. Would 3'OU figure on I'etaining the laiul that is sus- 
ceptilde of irrigation? 

Mr. Hunter. No. We think it would be. perhaps, toct costly. 

Mr. Raker. For you to Imild the ditch? 

Mr. Hunter. Yes, sir. 

]\Ir. Raker. Or the ditch to be built 

j\fr. Hunter. AA"e have not made 

ISTr. Raker. The land soutli of the line designated heretofore that 
is owned by you is land that is susceptible of irrigation '. 

Mr. Hunter. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Raker. And what would it produce — what kind of crops? 

Mr. Hunter. It will produce, we know, rye, and I saw some stub- 
ble of some wheat grown there. 

Mr. Raker. Is the Government's laud in the same condition? 

Mr. Hunter. Precisely. 

Mr. Hawley. Clover t 

Mr. Hunter. Well, yes; under irrigation, clover. 

JNIr. Raker. I understand there is an agreement betAveen you and 
the Southern Pacific Railroad Co. that they are to have a right of 
way over all of your lands, on this tract, both north and south of the 
line designated. Is that right? 

Mr. HuNiTSR. A verbal agreement; yes, sir. 

Mr. Raker. Well, supposing that the Government should make 
this exchange, would you ex])ect the Government to carry out Avith 
the Southern Pacific Railroad your agreement with them for the 
right of way across the line? 

Mr. Hi NTER. Well. I would like them to respect it. but Mr. Haw- 
le}' says they Avould get it anyway — or Mr. Latierty. 

Mr. Raker. There are a great many conditions that may be im- 
posed on a railroad company getting a right of way across a national 
forest. 



CONSOLIDATION OF FOEEST LANDS. 11 



Mr. Hunter. AVell, so long as 

Mr. Raker. What I am figuring on is whether or not tlie thing 
would be in shape so that the railroad would go right over this land 
under the private arrangements heretofore had and which might be 
consunnnated by the exchange made, so that the Government would 
not be able to hold up some rules and regulations to other railroads 
seeking rights of ways across national forestry lands? 

Mr. Hunter. Well, so long as the Government gives us the four 
town sites that we are giving lots aAvay in I do not think we would 
particularly care. 

Mr. Raker. What do you mean by " four town sites "? You want 
the Government to exchange land up here where four town sites 
are now located by you ? 

Mr. Hunter. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Raker. You would want that land if exchanged? 

Mr. Hunter. I would want that kept for that purpose. 

Mr. Lafferty. He wants to retain those lands in making this 
exchange. 

Mr. Raker. You want the land that you have selected now as town 
sites ? 

Mr. Hunter. Yes. 

Mr. Raker. And that the Government could not select that par- 
ticidar tract of land in making the exchange ? 

Mr. Hunter. Unless the Government prefers to substitute town 
sites someAvhere else that they would rather have us take. 

IMr. Raker. Has this right of way of the Government of the rail- 
road been surveyed ? 

Mr. Hunter. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Raker. Located? 

Mr. Hunter. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Raker. Tliey are building toward it as fast as they can. 

Mr. Hunter. T understand — I saw a clipping yesterday that they 
had discontinued. 

Mr. Raker. How near are they to the south part, temporarily? 

INIr. Hunter. Temporarily? 

Mr. Raker. How near are they working on the railroad? 

Mr. Hunter. The last time they were Avorking was about )1^> miles 
south. 

]Mr. Raker. They woidd have to go through this territory to 
get through the objective point in the Willamette Valley? 

Mr. Hunter. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Raker. What is that point? 

Mr. Hunter. Natron. 

Mr. Hawley. It comes into Eugene. 

Mr. Hunter. Yes. 
' Mr. Hawley. And it would cross over at Sprinsfeld and goes down. 

Mr. Raker. In the Willamette Valley? 

Mr. Hawley. Near Eugene. 

Mr. Raker. And then go from Natron to strike the main line 
that runs from San Francisco tip through California and the Willa- 
mette Valley to Fremont? 

Mr. Hunter. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Hawley. That is right. 



12 CONSOLIDATION OF FOREST LANDS. 

The Ghajkman. How long has OregDu Co. owned this hind that 
3^011 propose to exchange with the Government!' 

Mr. Hunter. Since the middle of November. 

The Chairman. Last year? 

]Mr. Hunter. Yes, sir. I was connected with the line prior to that 
time, and was })resident of the Oregon Military Land Grant Co. We 
sold all the lands that got these to a Kansas City outfit, and the 
Hnnter Land Co. retained an agency of sale on this, but did not 
think of putting the lands on the market until some railroad con- 
struction ^^■as under way. and then we repurchased from this Military 
Co., which I had sold entirely out — my interest in which I had sold 
entirely out. 

Mr. Pickett. I do not know as it is material: but what did you 
pay for that land? 

^Ir. Hunter. When we bought it l)ack? 

Mr. Pickett. Yes. 

IVIr. TIuNTER. $3. (').") and certain i)ack taxe^. T do not know what 
they were. 

Mr. Kakkr. The land that vou sold to the Kansas City Co. was 
about 250,000 or 300,000 acres?" 

Mr. Hunter. Five hundred and sixteen thousand acres. 

Mv. Rakhr. Now, they disposed of all their land after the method 
that I suggested awhile ago as to the drawings, did they not? 

Mr. Hunter. I belie\'e they did. 

Mr. Raker. And did thev not make out of it in the neighborhood 
of $3,000,000 in cash ? 

^fr. Hi'nter. Xo, sir; I do not believe they uiade a dollar. So T 
am informed. Thev li'ot int(> a mess and iiad to l»uild the 
$500,000 

Mr. Ha\\'ley. Did the l>ooth-Kelley Lnm1)er Co. ever buy any of 
those granted lands? 

Mr. Hunter. Which the Military Co. acquired? 

jSIr. Rakkr. This will not apply net-essarily to this, but I want to 
show how it would work out. Five hundred thousand dollars of 
lands were transferred to the Kansas City })eoph'. They got the 
title to it: they got all their cash when the di-awing was had — cash 
money; and they turned over all the reclamation projects and all the 
other tilings to the ])eoiile that bought the land. So. it is uj) to the 
people to make good. Is not that right? Was not tliat the condi- 
tion that left them in? 

Mr. HiNTER. Xo. sir: their contracts were not jiaid u}) at the 
time they held their opening and the reclamation was undertaken 
and liad to be com])leted by them. 

Mr. Raker. By the company? 

]Mr. Hx'NTER. By the comiiaiiy : yes, sir. I l)ought a number of 
the contracts myself, which they agreed to irrigate and which, by 
the way, have not yet been irrigated, but 

Afr. Raker. I understood — so as to bring out how it might come 
into this — from the people themselves that they bought for cash. 

Mr. Hunter. Oh, no. 

Mr. Raker. There were some ^i.^O came into my town on their way 
to this land and I talked Avith a good many of them and received 
some corres])ondence from some of them, and I understood they paid 
cash for their drawings. They all apj^eared at Lake A^iew and drew 



CONSOLIDATION OF FOEEST LANDS. 13 

SO much land, all the ^vay from 10 acres to 2,000 acres, ami they got 
a town lot Avith the drawings; that there were reclamation projects, 
etc.. to be carried out, and the people that got the land took over all 
these things 

Mr. Hawley. Would you let me ask a question ? 

Mr. Raker. Yes. 

Mr. Haa\'lev. Were those land drawings iu Lake View or were 
they of lands in this section ? 

Mr. Raker. Lake View, and scattered all over southern Oregon, 
which is a part of the Oregon Military lands. Tliis land was sold 
to the company at that time? 

Mr. HujSter. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Raker. They all understood, to show the relation of things, 
that there were three fine ranches in our county — Modoc County — 
and two or three in Oregcm. They did not put those lands in the 
drawings, but the company still held them out. Now. was this 
land in this drawing or was it held out? 

Mr. Hunter. It was never in the drawings. 

Mr. Raker. They owned it at the time, did they not ? 

Mr. Hunter. Yes; but simultaneously — but at the same moment 
that we disposed of our shares, which gave them control, they exe- 
cuted a contract — an exclusive-agency contract — to the Hunter Land 
Co. covering this particular area. 

Mr. Raker. At the same time they made the other contract? 

Mr. Hunter. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Raker. But, as a matter of fact, they held out the lands in 
southeastern Oregon, south and west of Lake View, known as the 
XL ranch. They held out the XL ranch and all its property in 
Modoc County, Cal., and what others I do not know, and this land 
involved here as well, and turned this particular tract over to the 
Hunter Land Co.? 

j\Ir. Hunter. I do not know what they did aboTit the other 
property. 

]\fr. Raker. And the other property instead of going into the 
drawing was held or redeeded from the company to individuals of 
the company, and they now own it? 

Mr. Hi'nter. I do not know what connection it has with this 
thing. 

i\Ir. Raker. I am going to get at it in a few moments. 

Mr. Hunter. I Avill say from my own recollection of it that the 
XL property was included. 

Mr. Raker. The people thought it was, but it was not. They 
bought out the XL ranch, and I do not know, but about 7,000 head 
of cattle, and both the Oregon land and the California land. 

Mr. LIunter. I am almost certain it was included. 

Mr. Raker. They own the land now and are renting it? 

Mr. Hunter. I do not know what their methods are, Judge Raker, 
and I am not in sympathy with them, and never have been. 

Mr. Haw^ley. You have no connection with them? 

Mr. Hunter. No possible connection with them, except in the 
court against them. 

INIr. Raker. All I was trying to do was to show what connection 
and how thev got this land out of them. 



X4 CONSOLIDATION OF FOREST LANDS. 

Mr. Pickett. Who did you get this land from— this Kansas City 
concern? 

Mr. Hunter. This particuhir hmd was acquired by me personally 
from the Booth-Kelley Lunibei- Co. — from the Oregon Land and 
Livestock Co.. a Eiigvne or San Francisco corporation — I think San 
Francisco. 

Mr. PiCKE'rr. What year? 

Mv. IIuNTKR. 1906. ' Here is a prospectus about the whole 
business. 

]\Ir. Pickett. When was it transferred the next time? We can 
not put the prospectus in the record, you know. 

Mr. Hunter. About 1909. 

Mr. Pickett. To wdiom did you sell them then ? 

Mr. Hunter. To the Oregon Valley Land Co. 

Mr. Pickett. Who did they transfer to, and when ? 

Mr. Hunter. The particular land in question? 

Mr. Pickett. The particular land in question. 

Mr. Hunter. It was at the same time given to the Hunter Land 
Co. to resell for that company. 

Mr. Raker. The Oregon Valley Land Co. held all the land— 
560,000 acres — which included this. 

Mr. Hunter. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Eaker. Then, at the time of the drawing or just before, this 
land was sold by the Oregon Land Co. to the Hunter Land Co. ? 

Mr. Hunter. No; years before. 

Mr. Pickett. Sold or just given the agency of it? 

Mr. Hunter. Given exclusively the agency — given, oh, a long time 
before. 

Mr. Raker. Where did the people remain when the Oregon Land 
Co. got it ? The Oregon Land Co. got the title to this ? 

Mr. Hunter. No; I do not think they did. I think it remained 
in the Oregon Military Land Grant Co. 

Mr. Raker. They did not. when they bought it, take the deed? 

Mr. Hunter. No. 

Mr. Pickett. When you speak of the " Oregon Co." do you mean 
the Oregon Valley Co.? 

Mr. Raker. The Oregon Valley Co. bought over the 500,000 acres. 

Mr. Hunter. The Oregon Valley Land Co. really never acquired 
this at all. 

Mr. Pickett. So nuiny names are confused. The Oregon Valley 
Land Co. — that is the name of it? 

Mr. Hunter. The Oregon Valley Co. 

Mr. Pickett. They acquired it? 

Mr. Hunter. They acquired it from the Oregon Military Land 
Grant Co. 

Mr. Pickett. When did the Oregon Land Grant Co. transfer the 
title to somebody, and to whom? 

Mr. Hunter. The Oregon Valley Land Co. never transferred this 
land at all. I think they defaulted to the Oregon Military Co. re- 
garding it, and the Oregon Land Corporation acquired this title from 
the Oregon Military Land Grant Co. 

Mr. Pickett. That was last fall? 

Mr. Hunter. The original purchase. 

Mr. Hawley. That was never consummated. 



C0NS0L1DA.TI0N OF FOREST LANDS. 15 

Mr. Hunter. No. 

Mr. Raker. Let us see right there. The}' had an option on all 
the land. 

Mr. Pickett. Who? 

Mr. Raker. The Oregon Valle}^ Land Co. They had an option on 
all the land that the Oregon Military Road Co. had. 

Mr. Hunter. I think they had. 

Mr. Raker. About 560,000 acres. They took a deed to some 250,000 
or some 300,000 acres. The title then went to the Oregon Vallev 
Land Co.? 

Mr. Hunter. Yes. 

Mr. Raker. The balance of it — but they did not take the title. 

Mr. Hunter. That was after my regime as president of the Mil- 
itary 

Mr. Raker. To the balance they did not take the title, and then 
when the matter was disposed of, however it was done, this ])articular 
land involved here, the deed then was made by the Military Road Co. 
to the Oregon Land Co. 

Mr. Hunter. Xo; the agency, which is a matter of record in 
Klamath County, from the Oi*egon Valley Land Co., which defaulted 
to the Military Co. 

Mr. Pickett. Were you connected with the Oregon Vallev Land 
Co.? 

Mr. Hunter. Xo; in no way whatever. 

Mr. Pickett. Were vou connected with this Oregon Militarv Road 
Co.? 

Mr. Hunter. I was president of it. 

Mr. Raker. However, tliey defaulted. How did the title come 
from the Militarv Road Co.; and if it did. where is the title now to 
this land ? " 

Mr. Hunter. The Oregon Corporation acquired the land by pur- 
chase. 

Mr. Raker. They got the title ? 

Mr. Hunter. Xo; under contract. 

Mr. Raker. Contract; but the Oregon Military Road Co. still held 
the legal title? 

Mr. Hunter. Yes. 

Mr. Raker. And the Oregon Land Co. had a contract foi- it? 

Mr. Hunter. Yes. 

Mr. Raker. But, whatever arrangement, whether agreement be- 
tween them or default, when the matter was disposed of this par- 
ticular tract of land now involved went to the Oregon 3Iilitary Road 
Co. for further disposition? 

Mr. Hunter. Yes. 

Mr. Raker. And did thev transfer it then to anvone — give a legal 
title? 

Mr. Hunter. To the Oregan Land Corporation, imder bond for 
deed — warranty deeds. 

Mr. Raker. I wanted to finish this up. I will get that straight. 
It will take me but a moment. 

Mr. Pickett. If you can, all right. 

Mr. Raker. Well, we will get it straight. 

Mr. Pickett. There are so many of these different names. 

Mr. Raker. Let me get the names, and then I can ask questions. 



16 CONSOLIDATION OP FOREST LANDS. 

Mr. IIiNTEi;. JiuliiC. 1 will give yon all that data _v»>u want. 

Ml'. Kakf.i;. Xow, tlie Oregon — what is this matter of Oregon 
]\Iilitary Eoad Co.: that is the original is it not? 

Mr. Hi'KTER. Original? 

Mr. Kakek. Yes. 

Mr. Ill NTEK. Yes. sir; Land Orant Co. 

Mr. Kaker. Oregon Military Road Co.? 

Mr. HuNTEK. Xo; Land Grjint Co. 

Mr. Hawley. Oregon Military Land (Irant Co.? 

Mr. liAKEH. Oregon Military Land Grant Co. A^ry well. Now, 
tliey made an arrangement to dispose of all their land, about .')G0,000 
acres, to whom or to Avhat company? 

Mr. Htnter. To the Oregon Valley Land Co. 

Mr. Raker. All right. Are there any companies which have got 
anything to do with that land except those two — the title of it? 
, Mr. IIi^nter. The Oregon Land Corporation now. that is 

The CiiAiR^NiAN. The present owner? 

Mr. Hunter. What? 

The Chairman. The Oregon Land Corporation is now the })resent 
owner. 

Mr. Raker. Let us see, the Oregon JSIilitary Land (irant Co., by 
^neans of various conveyances, got all of this land, about 560,000 
acres, and held the legal title to it in about 1009? 

Mr. HrNiT:R. Yes. 

Mr. Raker. They made a contract with the Oregon Valley Land 
Co. to deed them this land? 

Mr. Ill ^TER. Yes. 

Mr. Raker. They did deed alxait .".00.000 acres of this, or about 
that, and the Oregon Valley Land Co. disjxjsed of that land? 

Mr. Hi nter. Yes. 

Mr. Raker. There was al)ont 2r>0.00() acres of land that the Oregon 
Military Land Grant Co. agreed to sell to the Oregon Valley Land 
Co. Tliat was not consunnnated. and by some arrangement, what- 
ever it might l)e. the Oregon Military Land Grant Co.. after default 
or other arrangements, whatever they might be. with the Oregon 
Valley Land Co.. turned around and made a deed of the land that 
was consummated Avith the Oregon Valley Land Co. — with and to 
(he Oregon Land Corporation: and the Oregon Land Corporation is 
tlie »ine now holding the land which is involved here. 

Mr. Hawley. Xot the T.OO.OOO acres? 

Mr. Raker. This particular tract. 

Mr. Hunter. The Oregon Land Grant Co. owned by purchase of 
these lands. I was then ])resident. We contracted the lands to the 
Oregon Valley Co. Shortly afterwards, then, the president of the 
Oregon Valley Co. said. '' I wish to l)iiy the control ami all the shares 
of the Oregon Military (\)." 
Mr. Pickett. Wlio said that? 

Mr. Hi NTER. R. (t. ]Martin. the then president of the Valley Co. 
I said. "All right, the Hunter Land Co. wall sell you its shares," 
whicli re})resented 02^ per cent of the entire issue — when I say 
Hunter I^and Co. I mean myself and my brother — but in making 
that sale to you you must give me back, or give back to the Hunter 
Land Co., the exclusive right to sell the 50.000 acres in question before 
this committee. 



CONSOLIDATION OF FOEEST LANDS. 17 

]Mr. Lafferty. Pardon me. May I ask a question? 

The Chairman. Sure. 

Mr. Lafferty. Sell at a certain price ? 

Mr. Hunter. Certainly. 

Mr.' Lafferty. Then you obtained an option to buy it back? 

Mr. .Hunter. Certainly. For a period of three years as tliis 
Valley outfit Avas constituted they did not include this land in the 
opening, because there were no railways anyAYhere near it. Very 
well. The Oregon Valley Co. failed to live up to their agreement > 

Mr. Pickett. That was after the president of the company had 
all the shares in the Military Road Co.? 

Mr. Hunter. It was. I stated that he did. I do not know that 
he ever did. In case I parted with my holdings and no longer be- 
came identified with the Military Co. 

Mr. Pickett. You parted with them to him? 

Mr. Hunter. To him. 

Mr. Pickett. Yes. Go ahead. 

]Mr. Hunter. They broke their contract and we intended to sue 
them for damages — for breach of contract. The purchase by the 
Oregon Land Corporation, which is half OAvned by the Hunter Land 
Co.. Avas a compromise arrangement to avoid litigation. 

Mr. Pickett. What breach of the contract did you complain of? 

Mr. Hunter. They claimed — the Valley Co. — that it had failed 
to pay a loan of something and had lost, and that the lands had 
reverted to the Oregon Military Poad Co.. and that they Avere no 
longer oAvners of the land, which Ave did not believe, but I could give 
you. Judge Raker, all this matter. I do 'not see Avhy we are encum- 
bering this record here. I can give you the whole history. 

Mr. Pickett. That is what Ave want in the record. 

Mr. Raker. That is Avhat we want: to get it in the record of the 
subcommittee. 

Mr. Hunter. The title to those lands is as absolutely near perfect 
as auA' lands in America. Reference to the records of the Supreme 
Court, and subsequent al)stracts brought doAvn to date. There can 
not be any question raised by anyone regarding the titles of these 
lands. 

Mr. Raker. We have given full credit to your statement. The 
record would show AA^herethe title was. What strikes me as peculiar 
is, if the Oregon Valley Land Co. did not get absolutetitle how could 
they convey title to anybody? Is not that right? 

Mr. Hunter. The Oregon Valley Co.. I believe, conveyed title to 
any lands they ever did liaA^e. 

Mr. Raker. Then those they put in the drawings they get title to— - 
deeds ? 

Mr. Hunter. I presume they did. j 

Mr. Raker. They had to convey legal title, did they not? 

Mr. Hunter. Yes. 

Mr. Raker. There were certain parts of the land they held back 
and did not get deeds from the Oregon Military Roads grant? 

Mr. Hunter. I can not ansAver that. I Avas not identified Avith the 
company. 

Mr. Raker. That had to be, I think, unless the Oregon Valley 
Land Co. got the title to all of it. Is not that right? Now, what 

43749—12 2 



18 COXSOLIDATION OF FOREST LANDS. 

I want to know is. liow did the Oregon Land Co. get title from the 
Oregon Military IJoad Co.. or is the contract still out lietween the 
Oregon Valley Co. and the Oregon Military Koad Co. '. 

Mr. Hunter. It is not. The records in Klamath County show a 
perfect title to-day. 

Mr. IvAKEi;. Are there any suits pending between these various 
companies ? 

Mr. IIuNTER. Xoue wliatever. 

Mr. liAKER. The conti'act has expired? 

Mr. HuNTEi;. It has: cleaned up by quit claiuis and other necessary 
instruments. 

Mr. Kaker. AVere tliese contracts recorded? 

Mr. Hunter. Tliey were made a uiatter of j-t'cord. 

Mr. Raker. I see. 

The CiiAHniAN. ^^dlat is the uauie of the gi;antor in the deed to 
ihe present com})any^ 

Mr. Ht'ntei!. The ( )regon Military Land Gi/ant Co. 

The Chairman. The original company that owned the lan<l? 

Mr. Hunter. Yes. sir. 

Mr. Raker. Did the ( )regon Military C\). haxc any (daini of right 
vo those lands? 

Mr. Hunter. None whatever. ( )r Avhat is here held by H. A. 
Hunter, the i)resident (myself), and I am willing to now gixe them 
hack to the Covernment. 

Mr. Raker. Wc have got that straightened a little l)it. l)ut not 
very clearly. 

The Chairman. It looks like the (iovernment would ha\e to have 
ronsiderable investigation of the title made l)efore the exchange could 
be effected. 

Mr. Hunter. The abstracts will show that. 

Mr. Raker. Ha^ e you an abstract ? 

Mr. Hunter. I have not it here. l)Ut you can get one — a perfect 
abstract. 

Mr. Raker. There has been a misunderstanding by the comuuttee 
here. 

Mr. Pickett. Before you answer that 

Mr. Raker. Yes. 

Mr. Pickett. Will you be kind enough to let us have this Exhibit 
.V and then mark the ditferent maps '"A." " B," '' C." or something? 

Mr. Raker. I will designate it. 

Mr. Pickett. So tliat the testimony in this ]iart of the record may 
iie clear. 

The Chair:man. (live them to the stenographer. 

Mr. Raker. I have marked "A." the plat we have l)eeu talking 
.dx)ut as to the north and south having the land that was in the 
former hearing. The connidttee understood before; I know I did. 
i asked the question to that extent, that the water on all of this tract 
>f land on Exhibit A would flow south. I find now. from examina- 
tion of" the niiip, tliat that is not correct, and I am going to ask a few 
^luostions on it. Coming from Fish I.iake, on this Exhibit A. the 
%'ater flows south and east. That is right, is it not? 

Mi\ Hunter. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Raker. There is a stream marked here on the north i)art 
known as the " East Fork of Deschutes " that flows north and east? 



CONSOLIDATION OF FOREST LANDS. 19 

Mv. IIiNTER. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Raker. And also from Crescent Lake that flows practically 
eastward ^ 

Mr. Hi XTER. Yes. sir. 

Mr. Raker. And the two branches join on the northeastern corner 
of the land. That tract on the north would be irrigated by ditches 
taking- water from these streams and the ditches would l)e taken from 
the water which would flow north. Is not that right? 

Mr. Hi NTER. That would be the natural way for it to go, unless 
you run your uuiins around along the sides of the hills, and let the 
water flow in a diflerent direction ; for instance, some of these streams 
do run this way. The Coral stream runs about in that direction, 
southeast again. 

Mr. Raker. You would have two systems if you handled it all — • 
two irrigating systems!! 

Mr. Hunter. Certainly. 

Mr. Raker. Separate, complete, and distinct? 

Mr. Hunter. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Raker. Had you contemplated irrigating the north part from 
the two branches of the Deschutes River? Have you completed this? 

Mr. Hi XTER. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Raker. Have you made any ditches? 

Mr. Hunter. No. 

Mv. Raker. Made your surveys? 

Mr. Hunter. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Raker. And designated on the ground where they shall go? 

Mr. Hi^xTER. Not deflnitely. 

^Ir. Raker. Xot definitely. Well, have you ap})roximately desig- 
nated on the ground where it will go? 

Mr. Hawley. Just a moment. Let me show you these maps. I do 
not think you have seen them yet. They were sent to me from Ore- 
gon by the representatives there. They show the approximate 
location. 

Mr. Raker. The large blue-print map? 

Mr. Hawley. Two of them. This is Xo. 1. 

Mr. Raker. Which is the north half? T After a pause:] The 
bhie i^rint Xo. 2 is the north lialf of the land involved and the blue 
j)rint marked Xo. 1 is the south half. Are the red lines marked on 
blue print Xo. 2 approximately as you have your system for irriga- 
tion ? 

Mr. Hunter. I believe so. 

Mr. Raker. And that one on Xo. 1 for the north half the same? 

^Ir. Hawley. South half. 

jNIr. Raker. South half — the same. Is that right, Mr. Hunter? 

Mr. Hunter. I believe so. 

Mr. Raker. Xow, when did you make your application for your 
water rights on this? 

Mr. Hunter. I do not remember. 

Mr. Raker. Approximately. 

Mr. Hunter. A year or two ago. 

Mv. Raker. Take the south half, now. Have you complied with 
the law, with the intention of using this water for irrigation pur- 
iioses on your land, as you understand it? 

Mr, Hunter. Yes, sir. 



20 CONSOLIDATION OF FOEEST LANDS. 

Mr. Rakek. Up to date what have you done? 

Mr. TTuNTER. Well, made the surveys as shown here on the inai)s. 

Mr. Rakeij. Have you made any applications to the Sei-reta ry of 
the Interior for rio-ju of way across the (Jovernment land? 

Mr. Th NTKK. Except with the local Government office at Orciion, 
I supi)ose it is. 1 do not think we have. 

Mr. Raker. Then neither to the south half nor to the north half 
have you made any survey or maps or jdats for application to tlie 
Secretary of the Interior to go over the Government lands with ytiui- 
canals and ditches for the purpose of irrigating your land? 

Mr. Hunter (to Mr. Hawley). Is that so? I am not certain. I 
do not know absolutely about it. It may be that we have not. 

]Mr. Rakkk. AVliat right do you claim to this water on the north? 
What makes you claim that? 

]\Ir. Hunter. Filing. 

]\fr. Raker. Just making the filing and making some of the |)re- 
liminary siu'veys. I.- that right? 

Mv. Ill N TKR. We made an absolute survey, meandered the lakes, 
and measured tlie water, and filed upon it, and paid the fee. 

]Nrr. Raker. You have not meandered the ditches yet, actually, 
have you? 

Mr.HiiNTER. I belifve xi. These nuips show that. I dou't know- 
much about this engineering business. That is under somebody else's 
management. 

Mr. Raker. Have you done the saute to the south half? 

Mr. Hi'NTER. I believe so. Here are the maps [indicating]. 

]\Ir. Raker. You have not done any work oti either so far as tlu^ 
actual excavation of the ditches is concerned? 

]\Ir. HuNTEi:. I do n((t think so. 

]\rr. Raker, liuilt any dams for the juirpose of imi)oun(liug the 
water? 

Mr. Hunter. No. sir. We are not recpiired to do that nor to roui- 
mence it until April 1 of this year. 

Mr. Raker. I was seeking for information. You would not !)e 
giving the Government anything, then, by virtue of that exchange, 
so far as the water right is concerned, Avould you? 

]Mr. Hunter. I would be giving about four years of my efi'orl and 
several thousand dollars in expense in the preliminary work. 

]Mr. Raker. ITnless the Government then took up and continued 
the irrigation system that you have planned out. wdth your surNcys 
and maps and ))lats. it would be no good to the Government, would it? 

Mr. Hunter. I should think the water rights would be, certainly. 

]Mr. Raker. The Government could ha\'e no water rights unless it 
proceeded to utilize them. 

]Vrr. Hunter. Xot — is not necessarily along our lines, would they, 
Judge ? 

^li'. Lafferti'. M;iy 1 a-lc ;•, (|nestion tliei'e? 
]Mr. Raker. Sure. 

Mr. LaI'T'erty. Was this water to the north in a forest reserve 
when you filed on it at Salem Avith the State engineer ov outside of 
the forest reserve? 

Mr. HtTNTER. I could not answer that. 

Mr. Laffei!tv. You s])oke about relinquishing. If you should re- 
linquish to-day. could not John Smith file on it to-morrow? 



CONSOLIDATION OF FOREST LANDS. 21 

Ml". Hunter. Certainly. 

Mr. Lafferty. How could 3^011 give the Government anything by 
relinquishing- it? But I do not believe John Smith could file on it 
to-morroM', if it is inside of the forest reserve. I think you must 
have made your filing before — put in the forest reserve. 

Mr. Hunter. As I recall my filings they were prior to the present 
Oregon law. 

Mr. PicKE'n\ Can you not give the year or month your filings 
were made? 

Mr. Hunter. The papers will show that. I do not recall now. 

Mr. Pickett. Where are all these papers? 

Mr. Hunter. At Salem : our copies. I presume. [To Mr. Haw- 
ley :] Are they there ? 

Mr. Haweey. They would be in the State engineer's office of the 
State of Oregon. 

MV. Raker. I see that the Government has particularly included in 
this reserve this lake and clear out around for the purpose of including 
the boundaries within the reserve. You do not know whether this re- 
serve was created before you started to work or not, do you? 

Mr. Hunter. I do not. I think that my filings were made prior 
to the present Oregon water-rights law. but I do not remember the 
date. 

Mr. Pickett. Do you not know — pardon me — it seems to me you 
ought to know, if you do not know, whether you made them last year 
or the year before last or the year preceding the year before last; 
it seems to me you ought to know within a year you made them. 

ISIr. Haavley. Were they made by you or the other representatives 
of your company? 

Mr. Hunter. Bv me; and I think thev were made vear before last. 

Mr. Pickett. That would be 1010? '' 

Mr. Hunter. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Eaker. As to your right to the water and the water rights 
that you may have obtained by virtue of your filings and your work, 
is it not a fact that under the Oregon law they would revert and be 
open to any subsequent filing -by anybody the moment that you fail 
to comply with the law at a certain date? 

Mr. Hunter. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Raker. Then, if the Government look a transfer of these water 
rights that you now claim, it would have to proceed under the Oregon 
law to consunnnate and complete this system, the same as vou have 
started it, or they would lose the rights, would they not? 

Mr. Hunter. I presume so. 

Mr. Raker. Well, now, is it advisable, is it a worthy project, or 
one that a man could expend money on individually or that the Gov- 
ernment could spend money on to continue that and to have it for 
the irrigation of this land, "in the north of this tract of land ? 

Mr. Hunter. I should say that the Government could use it to 
ten times better advantage by using it on lands lying farther to the 
north and at a much lower elevation. 

Mr. Raker. Wlw could not you? 

Mr. Hunter. Because we do not own the land. 

Mr. Raker. Who does? 

Mr. Hunter. Either the Government or some Carey Act company. 



22 CONSOLIDATION OF FOREST LANDS, 

Mr. Eaker. If tlie Carey Act company owns the land now, it W(Mi1(1 
not do the Government an}^ good to get the water right, wouhl it t 

Mr. HiNTEij. I do not think the Carey xVct companies do. 

Mr. ITawley. I do not think there are any Carey-Act companies in 
that conntry. I think they are generally public lands lower down in 
the Deschutes Eiver — thousands of feet lower elevation. 

Mr. Eaker. If you completed your water system you wouhl lia\e 
it for these lands below whether Carey-Act Government land or 
private individuals, would you not, just the samei' 

Mr. Hunter. I do not know. 

Mr. Eaker. Why not? 

Mr. HuNTEK. If that is true, why do we have to give our pre- 
liminary and definite surveys in order to hold it? 

jNlr. Eakek. That is under the Oregon law. 

Mr. Huntek. Oh. 

Mr. Eaker. That is a very comprehensive and expensive statute 
of Oregon showing what a man must do to get a water right in 
Oregon, and he must do such things: is not tliat right? 

Mr. Eakei!. Under the Ignited States law, getting a right of way 
over I^nitcil States forestry lands, or over the Government lands, you 
have to take u}) the same matter with tlie Government and get per- 
mission to cross the Go\ernment land through the Secretary of the 
Interior and the Department of Agriculture. That, I mulerstand, 
you have not attempted t(» do if 

Mr. lIi'NTER. Kxcept that I remember speaking to the local for- 
ester, and he said that it would be all right and it was unnecessary at 
this time. 

Mr. Eaker. Why unnecessary^ 

ISIr. Hunter. I do not know. 

Mr. Eaker. Do you not know, frou) your examination and the 
advice of your counsel — have they not ad\ised that you can not cross 
a foot of land or get one single right thei-e until the Govei-nment has 
given you that permission? 

Mr. Hi'NTER. 1 spoke to the State engineer of Oregon ou lliat 
very subject — at least that is my best recollection now that he said 
it— certainly. I have carried it with me all this time — that if we 
Itought with the State, under the present water law. that there is an 
understanding with the Goverinnent that Ave will be saved. The 
subject came up. liecause a man from Boise, I think, filed 

The CirATR:\iAN. I do not see how this is going to help this com- 
mittee. 

jNIr. Eaker. If there is such an understanding. 

The CiTAiRMAX. He is talkinir al)out a man from Boise who 
filed 

Mr. Eaker. If there is such an miderstanding between the oflicers 
of Oi'egon and the Land Department I want to know it. as a member 
of this committee, and I want to know why the same understanding 
is entered into with the same States upon (he stuue matter. I realize 
that in the State of California we have our water law and we nnist 
(•omi)ly with the State law. and. in addition to that, we must conijily 
literally with the Government — national acts to cross the reserves 
and under the rules and regulations of the Department of the In- 
terior and the Department of Agriculture. 



CONSOLIDATION OF FOEEST LANDS. 23 

The Chairman. The idea I had in mind was that what somebody 
told him in Oregon of the understanding was not the best evidence 
of the understanding. That ought to be a matter of record here. 

Mr. Hunter. Except, Mr. Chairman, that the man who made tlie 
statement was our State engineer that we seem to run to in such 
matters. 

The Chairman. The committee would have to go to headquarters 
on a matter of that kind. 

Mr. Hunter. Whether our title as yet to the Avater has been ap- 
proved I am not prepared to state. From what you gentlemen say 
I should think it was not, but we wnll expect, of course, to conforis. 
to the Government regulations. 

Mr. Raker. It would never be perfect except you used it for bene- 
ficial purposes? 

Mr. Hunter. Certainly. 

Mr. Raker. And complied with the law. both State and National. 
Your title is always dependent upon l)eneficial use. Tluit is right. 
is it not ? 

Mr. Hunter. Yes. 

Mr. Raker. Pass on to another matter. Why can not you go 
ahead and carry out your project just as y<iu have without changing 
with the Government ''. 

Mr. Hunter. We would probably intend to do that, but it w^ould 
be more expensive for us to do it by far. 

Mr. Raker. If you did it and carried it out. would it not o})en up 
more land for actual settlement and use. you i)utting vour land 
already under cultivati(m by irrigating it and then putting it under 
cultivation, and the Government throwing open to settlement all of 
this land that is susceptible of cultivation. 

Mr. Hunter. Then do away with this land: I would sooner keep 
our land. 

Mr. Hawley. I Avould like to make a statement, if Judge Raker 
will permit. If this bill is reported favorably by the committee and 
it becomes a law, then here is a compact body of land ready to 1j€ 
irrigated from a locality and because they are compact, not alternate 
sections, they can be irrigated at very much lower cost and there- 
fore at a lower cost to the settlers. I am of the opinion that when the 
exchange is made the present company will lose all its filings up there 
by the failure to dig the canals or irrigate the land, but there is a 
small area only up in here [indicating] that can be irrigated; but 
down the Deschutes River here and west the river falls (juite rapidly 
for awdiile and then here [indicating] is a wide valley. That is about 
2,000 feet lower than this. This is very good sagebrush land, you 
know: some of the best sagebrush land we have in the country. 

Mr. Raker. Sure. 

Mr. Haavley. If tlie exchange is not made, whereas ii this ex- 
change is made then the water here [indicating! will be used to the 
best advantage, and then water can be conserved and carried down 
(o irrigate this lower land in very large areas of 10.000 acres, instead 
of irrigating a small portion of land up here [indicating]. It will 
leave this vast supply of water up here availaljle for all this bench of 
sagebrush lands below. 

^Ir. EsTOPiNAL. Whose lands are those? 



24 CONSOLIDATION OF FOREST LANDS. 

Mr. Haa\'ley. They Ufl'uig largely if not altogether to the (jrovern- 
meiit. The Deschutes Railroad is going through that section, and 
is going to open it up. 

Mr. Raker. Mr. Hunter, is not your idea, as a public citizen, that 
jt is a Avrong policy of the (jrovernment to tie up farming lands, lands 
that can be used for farming purposes? 

Mr. Hunter. Practically: yes. 

Mr. Raker. Then this land in the south part is agricultural, and 
with water on it it could be available for the (Tovernment to dis- 
pose of it to settlers? 

Mr. Hunter. Yes: Init 

Mr. Raker. Now. take the north tract: If you irrigate this the 
Government will be in a position to have its w^ater under the irrigat- 
ing system, whatever water is used on these higher lands, the surplus 
and the seepage must get back into these creeks before it leaves this 
liighest altitude. Is not that correct? 

Mr. Hunter. Yes. 

Mr. Hawley. The water does not evaporate? 

Mr. Raker. The water does not evaporate. It will utilize that 
land and utilize the water. The balance will be in shape to carry 
on down to the lands below, whereas. I think, the water up here 
[indicating] is going to waste now. 

Mr. Hunter. All of which is perfectly true. Judge Raker, liut to 
irrigate our little patch in there, we propose to put in little earthen 
rock dams that will conserve just enough for our requirements and 
not an additional acre. On the other hand, you can conserve, by your 
own Government ex}jert"s figures, water enougli for 1.000 acres of 
such land, and do it at one operation and can afford to. "We can 
not. We do not intend to afl'ord to do it if we could. 

Mr. Raker. Do you not think it would be the wrong policy for the 
Government to throw open or to trade this land that is easy and ac- 
cessible or which will be to the railroad and water that can be had 
upon it for the land up farther north where it will be harder for the 
Government to handle it. and the Government will have to pay more 
to irrigate it? 

Mr. Hunter. Why would the Goverjiment have to pay more to 
irrigate it? I think they can irrigate it for less. It is very ques- 
tionable whether we could use one drop of that water down through 
this pass, except with an expensive tunnel, whereas the water con- 
served in the north will run in its natural river beds that it has been 
running in for a thousand years, right down onto your Government 
land that we do not enter. 

Mr. Raker. Are they not using it on that Government land now ? 

Mr. Hunter. Xo. They are not using one-millionth part of it. 

Mr. Raker. Why do they not? 

Mr. Hunit:r. I do not know. 

Mr. Haavley. That country is comparatively undeveloped country ? 

Mr. Hunter. Until the middle of October last there was not a 
train Avithin 150 miles of there. - 

Mr. Pickett. Hoav many acres are there doAvn here [indicating] 
that you own. lieloAv the center of the line of toAvnship 27 south ? 

Mr. Hunter. Here [indicating] ? 

Mr. Raker. Yes: ap])roximateh'. 

Mr. Haaa'ley. About half. 



CONSOLIDATION OF FOEEST LANDS, 25 

Mr. Pickett. I want to get this in the record. 

Mr. Hunter. Say, 32 sections. 

Mr. Pickett. Thirty-two sections '. 

Mr. Hunter. Approximately speaking. 

Mr. Pickett^. There is ap])roximately the -tune amounf: owned by 
the Government ? 

Mr. HuNi'ER. ^'es, sir. 

Mr. PicKE'iT. How much will this irrigation plant of yours cost to 
irrigate this portion below the center line of township 27 so!ith \ 

Mr. Hunter. We figure about $17.50 an acre. 

Mr. PiCKEiT. You sell the land at ^12.r.0 an acre, I understoo<l you 
to say? 

Mr. Hunter. For the raw land. 

Mr. Pickett. For the raw land, and what would be the ferins ? 

Mr. Hunter. The present terms ? 

Mr. Pickett. For use of the water, wiiatever you call it out tiiere — 
water rights or water lease? 

Mr. Hunter. We have not decided on any terms for the water yet. 
They will be reasonable. Roughly speaking. I should say that if we 
sell the land and water at $40 an acre, that if we got a down pay- 
ment of one-sixth and in some instances one-tenth we would be per- 
fectly satisfied to have the balance in one. two. three, or five years, not 
to exceed 6 per cent interest. 

Mr. Raker. If an exchange was made and the company had all of 
the land south of the line designated, the idea would be to put it in 
one great body and sell it off with the water rights? 

Mr. Hunter. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Raker. And you would sell it for, say, $30 an acre, or what- 
ever it would be, with water rights \ 

Mr. Hunter. Yes. 

Mr. Raker. After it was all sold off, the parties who bought the 
land and the water rights connected with it, would then from that 
on have to maintain it themselves? 

Mr. Hunter. Certainly. 

Mr. Raker. The company would dispose r>f botia water rigiu- and 
land ? 

Mr. Hunter. It would. 

Mr. Raker. And the people that bought would then have to go in 
together and maintain it? 

Mr. Hunter. Yes. 

INIr. Raker. They would each own a certain right in the water? 

Mr. Hunter. Priority of right in their ditch. 

Mr. Raker. Yes. Now, is there enough water — i^an there be 
enough water developed for the south half to irrigate it alF^ 

Mr. Hunter. I doubt it very much. 

Mr. Raker. Well, then, why do you want tlie land? 

Mr. HiTXTER. P)ecause we propose to •^ell it where we irrigate one- 
half, if necessary. 

Mr. Raker. How is that ? 

Mr. Hunter. Here is a country that is level. A man can irrigate 
the north half of his 80-acre piece. 

Mr. Raker. Yes. 

Mr. Hunter. This year. 

]\Ir. Raker. Yes. 



26 



CONSOLIDATION Ol' KOH.KSl" LANDS. 



Mr. IIiNii;!;. And plant it in cIonci'. Thoiv is not -ullicicnt water 
l(( injo-aie his wliolc SO-aciv piece. Ilei-e lie could apply the walei' 
(<i tlie smith hair of (he piece. 

Mr. IvAKKi!. It is yoiii- idea, is it luit. that if yon owned the (Jdv- 
ci-nnient land and had a title to it in land that the company now owns, 
it would he one coMipacl iiody of ahoiit lO.OOO acres!' 

Mr. HlMKi;. 'W's. 

Mr. Rakki;. ^ ou liuMire now on ha\in<i- sudicient water from the 
system tliat you are working- on Tor this 10,000 acres to make it enou<>-h 
Ml fact to -successfully farm this 10.000 acres!' 

Mr. lIiNTJoi!. If you use the word '" i'ai-ni '' 1 say emphatically yes, 
Itecause these ii-ri^itors ima_u-ine that plants are laru-ely aijuatic; they 
(h'own them out. They would he better oil' if they had half as much 
water as they June, and that is just the wvy reason. \'erv ii'ood ve- 
sults may he had hy wcltiiiif i( e\cry second yeai'. I am lirudy con- 
vinced that is sudicient. 

Ml'. Uakki!. I f you Completed your plant nt)\\ you would liaxc an 
ahnndaiM-e of water for the I'O.OOO acres that vou now own? 

Ml'. IIiNTKi;. 1 hope so. 

Mr. Kaki:i;. A\'ell. do yon not feel certain!' 

I\[r. IlrNTKi;. I feel it; yes. sir. 

Ml-. 1{akki;. .\nd williiiii' to i:'<» further t(> think thai you liave 
enoniilt to irriii'ate the other I'O.OOO acres now owned l>\' the (Jovern- 
iuenl and to have siillicient water to successfully farm it!' 

Mr. IIrNi'i:i;. "^'es. sir. 

Mr. Kakf.i;. If that is the case, you people would not he injured in 
iiny way, shape, or marnier: it would he to youi' a(hanta,i»;e if von 
went n^ht ahead and com]>leted yctur ii'i'ia'ation system ami ,i!;ot your 
ditciies o\-er the land, and the (Joxcrnment would he compelled then 
((* throw ojK'ii this land to settlement ( 

Mr. IIi-NTKi;. Will \{ ( 

Mr. Rakkh. Woidd it not '( 

Mr. IliNii-.i;. If il will, do not le( u^ discuss ihis any moi'e. he- 
cause w( aic not lioiiiii; to stand here to <ii\e this (ioxci'ument this 
heaiitifu! ytdlow pine in order to i!,-ci it to throw open to (he j^nblie 
the land, hecause we will ke<'p our yellow pine and we will com- 
mand that land, and I will iii\c away (hose homesteads, a^ we did 
in (he rase of North Dakota, and pay the filinii' fees. 

I'he CiiAiif.MAN. ^'on do not thiidc tlie (lovernment will open it? 

Ml-. IlrNTKi;. They will not. 

Mr. IiAKKi;. How can you i:i\c away a homestead? 

Mr. Ih Ni'Ki;. lu'cause wc oi'iiiimite and pay the filing' fees of our 
Inniis in the area I will show you here. 

Mr. Rakki!. "^'ou sold them the water riii'ht ? 

iMr. Ih XTKU. Here is the case. 

IMr. Laifkk'Ty. That is not it. 

Mr. IhNTKii. Here is the case where tliere was a iii'eat area of com- 
paratne arid lands. They wei'e alternate sections. 

]\I). I.iAFFKit'1-v. Railroad land irranted to you all throuiih there!' 

Ml. Ih'NTKi;. I^'rom the Northern Pacific. 

Ml'. l^AKKi;. Yon (lid not answer my <|uestion, which is this: JIow 
mucli di<l you charii'e them for water? 

Mr. Hrxi'i;i!. This is not an irriira(ed district. 

iMr. R.\KKi:. A\'hat did vou a-et out of it ? 



CONSOLIDATION OF FOREST LANDS. 27 

Mr. IIiNTER. We sold alternate sections: but if you will permit us 
lo gi\e homesteads away there, to brino- in settlers, we need not 
discuss this bill any longer; but you will not do that, and this Gov- 
ernment would do it, an(l that is why we are discussino- it here. 

\h'. Raker. Is not that the sole object of the (Tovernment 'I It has 
this land for the ])ui-pose of disposition to its citizens, to make homes 
upon it, and why should not the Government open this for home- 
steaders the same as any other land that is suscei)tible of home- 
steading and farming? Can you give us any idea ? 

Mr. Hunter. Without water, Judge Kaker. it is vvvy iiuestionable 
whether the Government is not justified in withholding at present 
just that particular body of laud. It has been opened for settle- 
ment, I am told, and one settler, to my certain knowledge, has gone 
and been courageous enough to do so; but unless some company goes 
in there and guarantees them at least some water for domestic or 
stock purposes^ at least, I tlo not think that Ave could cast a stone at 
I he Government or at the Forestry Bureau. 

Mr. Raker. You are not casting a stone at anyone. I am simi)ly 
trying to get the facts of the matter, so that we may thoroughly 
p.nderstand it. Do you contt'ud. if you l)uild your ditch, to give them 
water around over your land, and it is -iCOOO acres south of the line 
we speak of. that you will not be conq^elled to sell to the other i)eo- 
ple in there that were not on your land under the original offer ? 

Mr. Hunter. We would not l)e compelled to sell them water until 
we had supplied our area. If we had any more water, we would 
be only too delighted to sell it. 

Mr.LArFERTY. May I ask a question right there? Would you be 
satisfied, as a substitute for the pending bill, that after its passage 
the Secretary of the Interior should throw open to settlement and 
homestead entry all of the Government-owned land south of the 
line you have designated? 

Mr. Hunter. South? 

Mr. Lafferty. A bill providing that those lands should be open 
to settlers south of the line there vou have designated? 

Mr. Hawley. Of the tract ? 

Mr. Hunter. They will have separated us by that time. 

Mr. Lafferty. Are you walling to abandon this bill and put in 
this substitute bill opening those lands to settlers instead of giving 
them to you? 

jNIr. Hunter. We would be deliirhted. and would verv much ])re- 
ferit. 

Mr. Pickett. Let me ask you a ([uestion: What is tlie value of 
these lands north of this center line that you own I 

Mr. Hunter. Oh 

Mr. Haweev. How nuich would it run to the acre — 1^-foot yellow 
i)ine? 

Mr. lit NTER. I have not the remotest idea. I would not know it. 
If I w^ere in the middle of the timber section. I could not tell you 
whether it was worth ^.'iO an acre or $5 an acre. I do not deal in 
timber. 

Mr. Rak.er. I would assume that, knowing the pr()[>eriv as you do. 
\ ou would have some idea as to its value. 



28 CONSOLIDATION OF FOREST LANDS. 

Mr. Hltnter. We buy Innds, Mr. Pickett, in large areas for settle- 
ment, and put farmers upon it. and if in areas Ave ac(iuire there are 
timber tracts we usually sell it to some timber outfit. 

Mr. Pickett. Yes: l)ut where there is any large percentage of 
timber tracts yon mu>^t form some opinion as to the value of your 
tract. 

]Mr. Hunter. We never have had it cruised. 

Mr. Pickett. What is the relation to the total }n'ice you are pay- 
ing ? 

Mr. Hunter. We have not had it cruised, nor have we had time 
yet. 

Mr. Pickett, ^'ou s}joke a little while ago of its being valuable 
land. I want your idea of it. 

jNIr. Hunter. I am using the Government's cruisers and experts' 
report as to that. 

Mr. Pickett. What do they say about that ? 

j\Ir. Hunter. If you refer to the hearings. Mr. Whistler states 
that the value would be alwut $3.50 per 1,000 feet— a little over $5 
a thousand close to the railway — when the railway is there. As to 
how many thousand feet. I have not the remotest idea. 

'J'he CHAiR:\rAN. Your company has had no valuation placed on it? 

INIr. Hunter. Xone whatever. 

The Chairman. Are there any further questions? 

IVfr. Raker. You woidd have to cross the Government land to 
make the ditches here, would you not — in the south part? 

Mr. Hunter. Yes. sir^ 

Mr. Raker. Wcdl. then, you could not do anything without cross- 
ing their hind ( 

Mr. Hunter. I do not see how we could. 

Mr. Raker. If it was one of their conditions that yon must sell 
Avater to other applicants as well as furnish it to yourself, the ap- 
plicants going in there to file on this land wonld be entitled to the 
water after paying you for it just the same as those upon your land. 
W(add they not '. 

^Ir. Hunter. Certainly: if we have a supply sufficient to give ii 
to them. The Goverument need not impose that, for we will agree 
to give it frankly, and at the same rate precisely, making allowance 
for the value of the land, as the other settler pays. 

The Chairiman. Ai'e tliei'e any other (juestions? 

jNIr. PIawley. Mr. Chairman. I woulcl like to make this one sug- 
gestion : Just south of this is the Klamath project, where the people 
had the right to go in and file on the land, and got the land from the 
(iovernment on the usual terms of homesteading, and the Avater right 
on the land I think now is $35 an acre, and if this land is opened u]) 
to settlement and soM at the prices they state they will sell it for. 
the ])eople wlio go wp liere and settle will be. if they sell at $30. which 
they hope to. at an advantage over the Government project, and I am 
very much interested, of course, lieing a ISIember froui the State of 
Oregon, in having just as many settlers come into our lands as pos- 
sil>le. and if these were the only lands left open to settlers, so that it 
was down to a point of saving every acre by having them irrigated, 
if ]iossible. and throwing them open to settlement, it would he a 



CONSOLIDATION OF FOREST LANDS. 29 

ilitl'crent proposition; there are millions of acres of land in Oregon 
(.pen to homestead settlements. I can take people out. to my certain 
knowledge, to good lands open for homestead settlement, and they 
will have to come in competition with all that, and if we can get 
40,000 acres here, settlers along the line of the new road, raising- 
crops and putting people in there, it will ]>e for the benefit of our 
section of the country, and the whole country. It will provide homes 
for a very large number of people coming in from the outside, be- 
cause very few people from Oregon will go over, but mostly people 
from outside, and it will provide homes on most favorable terms for 
a large number of people. 

The Chairman. This is in your district ( 

Mr. Hawley. This is in my present district. After the next Con- 
gress it will be from the third district, but at the present time I 
represent this portion of the State. 

The Chairman. Are there any further questions. [After a pause. I 

(Some one else spoke here, not the chairman.) 

I would like to ask one more. Judge Eaker. if I may be permitted. 
All this bill proposes to do is to authorize the Government through 
its I)ei:)artment of Agricultui'e to exchange certain lands that are 
now of very little value, according to Mr. Potter's testimony given 
heve before the committee, to the Government, for lands that are 
\ery valuable to the Government, on the ground that it is pro- 
ducing the best kind of timber growing on the eastern side of the 
(^ascades, and the Government, from the standpoint of the way it 
stands now, will make an advantageou- exchange. If the company 
gets anything out of it at all. it assumes the risk and the burden of 
uiaking it profitable, and the State of Oregon and the country will 
have the advantage of making ready for settlement some 40.000 
licres of land. The Government will be advantaged by that, because 
it will provide homes for people, and the Government has already the 
;;dvantage of getting some very valuable pine land and consolidating 
its forest holdings and getting its land for settlers out of land not so 
> aluable. 

Mr. Hunter. And improving fire limits <»f hre control. 

Mr. Lafferty. I just merely want to say that I am in sympathy 
with the careful investigation that has l>een made by the Public 
r.ands Committee as to This, and from all that has been developed 
I am of the opinion that it ought to be passed, in the interest of the 
Government, because the Forestry Bureau seems to think it is 
proper, and I do not see any harm that could possibly come to the 
Government. It is only a small body of land, as ^Ir. Hawley says, 
it was the area opened to homestead entry in Oregon. Mr. Hunter I 
lia\ e known for two or three years. He is known as a remarkable land 
man. He is a genius in his line, and I think thoroughly honest and 
reliable. This grant of this Southern Oregon Military Wagon Eoad 
Co. of thousands of acres, years ago. was contested in the courts — but 
Mr. Hunter had nothing to do with that — on the ground that the 
wagon road was never l)uilt. and anolb.er contention — I believe 
that some Indian rights conflicted with it. Before Mr. Hunter 
-howed up on the scene the Supreme Court had decided that the 
Southern Oregon Military AYagon Road Co. ac(|uired the title under 



30 CONSOLIDATIOX OF FOREST LANDS. 

the grant. There were no restrictions like in this raih'oad grant 
that we have, reijuiring sales t<^ the settlers; it was absolutely a 
simple grant. The title has come on down in the }>ast live or six 
years to this Oregon Land Grant Co.. and the Oregon Land Grant 
Co.. of which Mr. Hunter was president, sold its stock and trans- 
ferred its lands to a Kansas Gity company — that from the (|uestions 
of Judge Eaker I should assume i)romptly they were guilty of some 
shar}) practices in disposing oi their lands, and may have made 
some niisrei)resentations. 

]\[r. Baker. Let me interrupt. I <lid not say they wej-e guilty of 
sharp practice. 

jNIr. LAFFEirrv. L in fact, knew nothing of that. I would not rec- 
onnnend this connnittee to ado])! this hill if it would aid any land 
company to go out and im])()se u})on any of the peojile of the United 
States. Here is a comjiany which nmst sell its irrigated lands, and 
of course a great many private corporations are doing that. 1 
believe ]Mr. lluntei- is resi)onsil)le. and I know his two associates in 
Oregon uuich ])ettei' than T do i\lr. Hunter. Mr. Stinchtield is a man 
whose father lives in Portland, or is interested largely in Portland, 
and is thoroughly reliable in every way: and the third gentleman. 
I can not recall his luune 

Mr. HrxTER. Hyskell. 

Mr. Laeeertv. Mr. Hyskell was a native Oregonian. formerly 
in the newspai)er Inisiness. These three men — Hmiter. Hyskell. and 
Stinchfield, jr. — comjxjsed the Oi-egon Land Corporation. Thei'e 
is not a more reliable man in the State than Stinchheld, and if water 
is ])ut on this south half 1 am contident there will l)e no misrejire- 
sentations to the public. If tliere should be the State of Oregon 
shcmld see to it that not any parties (d' the kind of that Kansas City 
crowd are there doing Imsiness. If they defraud the i-)ublic they 
ought to be prosecuted. 

Mr. Hawley. Mr. Chairman. T would like to oti'er this telegram, 
which was sent to me to file with the committee. The qtiestion came 
\\\) in this hearing as to about how long this coi'ixiration would be 
compelled to begin the actual ])hysical work of constructing <litches, 
and in order to get sometldng foi- the record I wired the State en- 
gineer, and he wires me as follows [reading] : 

Salkm. ORKd.. I'cbnmnj ,.'.''. /.•'/.?. 
Hon. W. ('. II.wvr.FV. 

\V II. shit, nil I II. D. ('.: 
Time for coni])]eti()ii of water ri^lit. Applientiou of the Orejion T>nii(l Corpora- 
tion, by H. A. Hnntor ami C. .M. Hysl^ell. will l)e extemleil until the close of the 
present session of Congress. 

.ToiiN TI. Lewis. Stair Kiiijiiiccr. 

Before that date, if the exchange be made, it nmst actually begin 
]>liysical construction of this, and I would like to oifer this and urge 
the committee to take the action it does take immediately, if the 
exchange is made, so that they can begin work on the lower half: 
and if no exchange, that they can begin such o})erations as will pro- 
tect them in their rights. 

Mr. Raker. Referring to the Kansas City com^iany and the ex- 
change of land in southern Oregon. I was not making any accu- 
sations against anyone, but just giving a statement as I had under- 



CONSOLIDATION OF FOREST LANDS. 31 

stood it. Whether all true or not I could not say, and I was trying 
to find out the j^resent status of the land involved here, and to see 
why tlie Oregon Land Co. did not turn over all of its land in the 
drawings that it had at Lake View, with the balance that it turned 
over at Lake View. 

The Chair^iax. If that is all, the committee will stand adjourned. 
We can not act on this, of course, until we get the report of the 
hearing. 

Mr. LLvwLEY. AVe are very grateful to you. gentlemen, for coming 
out this afternoon. 

Thereui)on. at .') o'clock p. m.. the committee stood adjourned. 



